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Author Topic: I've broken the rules (and so have you)  (Read 2206 times)

Offline Soul Reaver

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I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« on: September 28, 2023, 05:54:28 PM »
Hello everyone.  I wanted to address the current Board Battle rules, and the pace of the current Epic Board Battle.

The current rules were put in place post-Eye of Terror, because I believe that for people to be adequately invested in the story/boards, the main plot needs to move forward at a semi-reasonable pace.  During the Eye of Terror we would often only have one post every few months at best from the Battle Host, and we saw a number of people drop off the boards during this time - I believe the two were related.  The Board Battle is a tandem story, and meant to be a collaborative thing: if one person is holding everyone else up, then that isn't fair on everyone else and makes them feel disengaged.  The situation was made worse by the fact that there was also no effective way to deal with a situation where the Administrator is the one holding things up.

I felt it was necessary to basically come up with a way of enforcing a "at least once a month" posting schedule for the Battle Host (and the same for all the players).  That's effectively what the current rules are asking people to do.

Let's fast forward to now.
Previously I've been chasing people up to post, but to be honest that's really something the Battle Host should be doing mostly, not just me.  After Veldanya's post in June I let things play out to see what would happen.
Between Veldanya's last post and the one before, we had a 3 month gap.
Other than myself, everyone took more than 1 month to reply to the post.

If we'd followed the rules (which we didn't), the following would have happened:
- Every player (except mine in this case) would have had their character god-modded by myself or Veldanya, and would have been put on 'Probation' (so they would have had to post within 3 weeks after Veldanya's next post
- I would have stepped in after 1 month had passed to God-mod the Battle Host
- If I didn't step up and do the above within 1 week, anyone could God-mod the Battle Host

Of course, this would be a bit of a ridiculous situation - it most likely would have meant that Veldanya or myself would have had to God-mod 75% of the active players.

Vedanya has made it clear to me in a private conversation that they have a lot of stress on them at the moment, so the Board Battles are low on their list of priorities, and the current inactive battle rules just feel like an additional deadline/stress for them on top of everything else.  This is fair enough.  However, they have also made it clear they do not want to hand off posting responsibilities to someone else, as they understandably want to see their own plot-line through.
This leaves us, one again, in a very similar situation as we had during The Eye of Terror, which is a situation I personally am not keen to repeat.

So, an open question to both players and Battle Host: what do we do about it?  I'm open to ideas, but here are some of my own.  Most are not mutually exclusive:

a) Relax the rules.  Let things play out as they do.  The purpose of the rules was to "make the board battles fun again(tm)" by making sure people actually posted, not to stress everyone out and make them miserable.
- Personally I don't like this idea, as I do firmly believe the slump in interest directly corresponds to a lack of posting.

b) Give Veldanya a hospital pass on the rules, given their difficult circumstances, for a timeframe they propose.  During this time hosting duties won't be given to anyone else and Veldanya can post as little (or as much) as they want.  Agreement to this would be by majority vote in a hidden poll.  Once the time is up they'll let us know if they need it extended further, and we vote again.  I'll add such an option to the rules for the future.
- I think this is a fair option and workable given the number of active players we have.  This is a collaborative thing, so people should have their say, and it also means we have an option that will give Veldanya the breathing room they need right now.

c) Change the rules so that the Battle Host doesn't have to post within 1 month of their own last post, but rather within either 1 month of their own last post or within [timeframe] of the last PLAYER'S post, whichever is longer.
- This reduces the stress on the Battle Host if people drag their feet with posting - which has been happening regularly.  The longer [timeframe] is, the less stress is on the Battle Host.  On the other hand, it also results in slow-posting players possibly leading to an even longer month gap between Battle Host posts, which gets worse the longer that [timeframe] is.  While I can see some benefit to this rule (having myself had a couple of occasions where people only post a day or so before my own 'host deadline' was up), it does reduce the pace further.

d) Since Veldanya has other priorities, I make it my job to remind people to post.  If they've posted, I'll probably start bothering people to get their posts up within a couple of weeks or so (please let me know the best way to contact you so I can do this).
- This places more responsibility and work on me, but I'm not under as much stress as Veldanya right now.

e) I enforce the players' side of the rules myself and will god-mod people that take more than 1 month to post from Veldanya's post.  This is so that when Veldanya DOES want to post, they don't run into a situation where there are still other peoples' posts pending.
- Again this places more responsibility and work on me, but I'm not under as much stress as Veldanya right now.

or, the option that IS mutually exclusive with (a), (b) and (c):
f) I enforce the rules as written for everyone.
- This would certainly ensure better pace, but based on my observations of the last set of posts, would make this a one-man show, with me basically posting for everyone, which isn't really what this is all about.  Not my favourite option.

I'd like everyone's opinions on the above and any other ideas that you may have.  Once I've got everyone's feedback we'll decide how to proceed.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2023, 10:40:47 AM by Soul Reaver »

Offline Kitharsis

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2023, 07:11:40 PM »
I think options b, c, and d seem pretty favorable. As always the boards should be fun for everyone, including the battle master.

Of course, I’m as guilty of letting time limits lapse between posts as anyone. It has been difficult keeping a regular cadence.

Soul Reaver I always appreciate your stewardship for the boards. And I’m on board for keeping things moving.

Offline Shadow Chorus

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2023, 10:50:57 AM »
I am largely indifferent to approach taken except for options E and F, which I would definitely -not- want to see implemented.

Sometimes life is busy or sometimes you're not particularly inspired for a post and it takes a while. But the board is supposed to be fun, not homework. I don't mind getting prodded occasionally if I've been slacking on posting something for a bit, but being threatened with something like 'make a post or I'll make it for you' just tends to make the inherently rebellious part of my brain go 'well fine, fuck you then, do it better yourself.' and want to post even -less-.

Offline Fallen Templar

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2023, 05:19:38 PM »
I find myself agreeing with Shadow, to me E and F feel like they may cause more issues than they would solve for that reason.

In the interest of keeping things going, options B and C stick out for me. Less stress on the Battle Host that way.

Offline Soul Reaver

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2023, 09:48:34 AM »
I am largely indifferent to approach taken except for options E and F, which I would definitely -not- want to see implemented.

Sometimes life is busy or sometimes you're not particularly inspired for a post and it takes a while. But the board is supposed to be fun, not homework. I don't mind getting prodded occasionally if I've been slacking on posting something for a bit, but being threatened with something like 'make a post or I'll make it for you' just tends to make the inherently rebellious part of my brain go 'well fine, fuck you then, do it better yourself.' and want to post even -less-.

I find myself agreeing with Shadow, to me E and F feel like they may cause more issues than they would solve for that reason.

In the interest of keeping things going, options B and C stick out for me. Less stress on the Battle Host that way.

I think you might have both misunderstood what (e) is about...

The current rules already allow the Battle Host to god-mod a player that’s holding things up and preventing them from posting within their own deadline.  Veldanya just hasn’t done so.  In (e), I was proposing that if I see a situation where Veldanya's post deadline is coming up and a player still hasn't posted, it would me that would god-mod them instead of Veldanya needing to do so.  That would leave them one less thing to worry about when they have time to post.

We’ve always had a rule that the Battle Host would be able to god-mod players that were holding up the plot.  I personally have always thought that this was in important rule/tool to have available.

Put yourself in the Battle Host’s shoes: you’ve posted almost a month ago where you cooked up some sort of special attack against everyone that will wipe them out if they don’t respond in some clever way.  And everyone’s responded, except for one person.  What are you supposed to do?  Unless you can god-mod the actions of the non-posting person to at least some extent by ‘assuming’ what they might have done, then the only options open to you are:
i) to hold off on your next Battle Host post, keep harassing the player that hasn’t posted (assuming you can get hold of them) and hope this person will post eventually (leading to a situation where one non-poster is holding everyone else hostage, and where you, as the Battle Host, need to ask the Admin/other players for more time so that they don't God-mod YOU to move the plot along)
OR
ii) pretend like that character has done nothing at all and gets hit accordingly (which is a total jerk move and a type of god-mod in its own right)
OR
iii) 100% ignore the character in your next post (which makes for some really incoherent writing, not to mention is sometimes close to impossible in certain situations where the characters really need to give their input)
OR
iv) something else I haven't thought of...?

Making a god-mod post for a non-posting player is supposed to be a last resort when other methods (eg, ideally reminding the player etc) have failed.  Practically speaking we’ve very rarely had to use that rule in the past, though in some rare cases we did have to do so.  In those cases I was glad the option was there.  I’d also like to point out that those god-mod posts should be kept very restrained – only as much detail is included to provide what is necessary.  The posts tend to be relatively short, ‘conservative’ solutions to a given problem that are as much in-line with established character powers/personality as possible, and don’t do anything like introducing new powers or result in any key character development.

If the idea of the Battle Host (or Admin in the interim, if we accept (e)) making God-mod posts for a player who doesn’t post in a certain timeframe is something a majority of players can’t get on-board with, we will need some alternative, ‘official’ means for the Battle Host to deal with a situation where they are supposed to post but a player hasn’t posted yet.

If you’ve got any alternative ideas, or refinements to the current rule (please do re-read it if you need to jog your memory), this is a good thread to discuss those.

Offline Kitharsis

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2023, 11:34:11 AM »
God Modding has always be an option. I’m not disputing that. It does suck to have that happen to you, but it is a motivator if you’re just dragging your feet :)

Offline Veldanya Venalla

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2023, 01:43:51 PM »
Wanted to wait for others to post their opinions given that of course this is (in a more direct way) revolving around me as the current Battle Host.   In terms of which options I feel like C/B/A are the best options (listed in order of "Best" to "worst" relatively).  Option C I think would certainly help AND I feel like is a plausible long term solution not only for myself but in general as actual potential permanent changes to the rules.  Option B of course is clearly a temp fix/band-aid so of course will work for now but doesnt really do much to fix some flaws in present rules (option C i feel like strives to do this).  Option A will "work" technically but does nothing to fix the present issues caused by lack of posting and does nothing to fix flaws in current rules.  Option E sounds like it would "work" but yeah doesnt fix flaws in present rules and yeah places more work on Soul Reaver versus on myself AND can potentially result in issues like we had recently where 50% of the players are going to be god-modded. 

Religion and greed, cause millions to bleed.

Offline Soul Reaver

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2023, 05:13:15 AM »
Ok, based on feedback so far, and my own opinions, I think the following should be done:


Permanent changes:

c) Change the rules so that the Battle Host doesn't have to post within 1 month of their own last post, but rather within either 1 month of their own last post or within [timeframe] of the last PLAYER'S post, whichever is longer.
This is probably an overdue change, but here's the question: how long should [timeframe] be?
Whatever it ends up being, we may end up with 1 month + [timeframe] as the time between the Battle Host's posts.
Personally I would say 1 week, but I'm open to suggestions.


Temporary changes (these won't last longer than Veldanya's tenure as Battle Host, or shorter in some cases):

b) Give Veldanya a hospital pass on the rules, given their difficult circumstances, for a timeframe they propose.  During this time hosting duties won't be given to anyone else and Veldanya can post as little (or as much) as they want.  Agreement to this would be by majority vote in a hidden poll.  Once the time is up they'll let us know if they need it extended further, and we vote again.  I'll add such an option to the rules for the future.
This will effectively override (c) above for as long as Veldanya needs it to be in place.
A question for Veldanya: how long do you feel it might be helpful for you to have this in place?
Remember that if it turns out you estimated wrong and we reach the end of that period, you just let me know how much more time you feel you need and we can vote again to extend it.

d) Since Veldanya has other priorities, I make it my job to remind people to post.  If they've posted, I'll probably start bothering people to get their posts up within a couple of weeks or so (please let me know the best way to contact you so I can do this).
Please note that (c) is intended to relax things for Veldanya only.  Players should still be aiming to post within a month of Veldanya's last post, so I'll probably start reminding people after a couple of weeks or so to make them aware that a post is up and waiting for their reply.
I will ALSO remind Veldanya around the time the 'usual' post deadline comes up, but as per (c) this will just be the occasional reminder.  There won't be any actual pressure to post.

e) I enforce the players' side of the rules myself and will god-mod people that take more than 1 month to post from Veldanya's post.  This is so that when Veldanya DOES want to post, they don't run into a situation where there are still other peoples' posts pending.
Keep in mind this isn't a new rule - this is just to take the work away from Veldanya.  I'm hoping that regular reminders from me doing (d) mean I won't have to do this for anyone anyway.
Remember, if you're in a situation where you feel you really CAN'T post within a month of the Battle Host, you really should let me know so we can accommodate you.

I've noted that both Fallen Templar and Shadow Chorus don't seem keen on having a god-mod rule of any kind at all, but I'll need to hear a good alternative solution for the situation it's intended to address if I'm to consider replacing that particular long-standing rule.

Offline Shadow Chorus

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2023, 09:36:57 AM »
Oh I don't misunderstand the purpose of the last two options at all. You are just correct in that I don't particularly like the god-mod method in any regard, because, regardless of how it might help the battle host, it is essentially threatening the player to make a post, which as I've mentioned is a bad way to get me to want to do that, and E and F, at least as the only solution taken, would only make that worse. And it's largely the way it's formatted; the current layout is that the god-mod is the default response for missing the deadline, when ideally the only default response should be to talk to the person in question and see what works best in their situation. The only time I'd recommend something like god-modding someone is if they agree to it or you just can't get into contact with them at all, rather than it being a standard threat sitting on display.

There is a recognizable tonal difference between 'You are approaching your deadline, please make a post or your character will be god-modded' and 'Hey, you're getting close to the deadline, do you need any assistance getting your post out there or anything from the mod?'

As for a timeframe on C; A week or two sounds fine to me. I would personally lean closer to two weeks, just because the fact that's half the amount of time the normal limit is set to makes my pattern-seeking brain happy, but either is fine.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 09:59:26 AM by Shadow Chorus »

Offline Fallen Templar

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2023, 09:58:24 PM »
Likewise, I hadn't misunderstood what you intended with stepping in to write the god-mod posts instead of Veldanya. I get why the rule was put there - got to keep the action flowing and all - but like Shadow said, I'd have thought sending a reminder (maybe a week's notice, for example) would have been the go-to option. And if the person in question is still unable to get a post in or are willing to hand it off, then go for the god-modding.

For the Battle Host's extra timeframe, I think a week or two is reasonable. Gives them some leeway without it being too long. Also, I realise I may be echoing Shadow a fair bit with this. Interesting to see how similarly we think, though.

All in all, I'm happy with the proposed changes, and I look forward to seeing how things pan out from here.

Offline Soul Reaver

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2023, 10:29:05 PM »
Just so everyone is kept in the loop, I've also heard back from Kitharsis and Veldanya via Dischord.

Kitharsis:
- Thinks [timeframe] for (C) should be 1-2 weeks.

Veldanya:
- Believes he will need (B) for only approx 1-2 months, as things are looking up.
- Thinks easiest would be for [timeframe] to be 1 month, but if not that, 2 weeks

And for me, I think [timeframe] should be 1 week.

Tallying up:
[timeframe] of 1 week: 4
(Fallen Templar, Shadow Chorus, Kitharsis, Soul Reaver)

[timeframe] of 2 weeks: 4
(Fallen Templar, Shadow Chorus, Kitharsis, Veldanya)

[timeframe of 1 month: 1
(Veldanya)

Makes it a bit of a tiebreaker, but I'll relent and make it 2 weeks since Veldanya had a preference for longer rather than shorter.  After all, just because it's 2 weeks doesn't mean it automatically will be 2 weeks every time.

I'll figure out how to do a hidden poll next and post it up so we can get majority agreement on the hospital pass.
I propose 2 months, after which the rules will kick in again as normal.

Offline Soul Reaver

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Re: I've broken the rules (and so have you)
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2023, 10:12:48 AM »
Poll is now up, everyone please go vote.  The poll isn't to determine IF we have a hiatus (that we've already agreed upon), but rather if the majority can agree on the proposed duration of 2 months.
http://administorum.com/index.php?topic=643

Inactive Battle Rules have been updated, please go and give them a read:
http://administorum.com/index.php?topic=501

Thank you everyone for being involved and having your say.